Naman Julka-Anderson (00:00)
Hello everyone and welcome to Rad Chat, founded by me, Naman Julka- Anderson.

Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (00:04)
and me, Jo McNamara. So Rad Chat is a forward thinking global knowledge hub where healthcare professionals can advance their expertise in radiotherapy and oncology. Unlike traditional academic resources, we blend real world experience, expert insights, best practice, and of course, most importantly, patient perspectives.

Naman Julka-Anderson (00:23)
We make advanced knowledge engaging and accessible, supporting continuous learning and professional development without compromising patient care or personal time. By providing insights into both technical skills and career development, helping you progress confidently in your field and shape your professional future.

Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (00:39)
Just to let you know, our episodes may contain sensitive and difficult topics that you may find distressing or triggering.

Naman Julka-Anderson (00:46)
This is a special episode in collaboration with UK Imaging Oncology, the UK's largest imaging and oncology event. UKIO continues to be the place to come for cutting edge practice based content for a multidisciplinary audience, to join up with like-minded professionals, to gain up to three days of CPD and to visit a large professional exhibition of the latest state of the art equipment, services and technology. So UKIO in 2026 will take place at the ACC in Liverpool.

on 8th and 10th of June. To register, please follow the link that we've put in the show notes. And today we have the amazing pleasure of talking with Dr. Shah Islam about his role as the UKIO president. Hi, Shah, how are you?

Shah (01:26)
Thank you and obviously big fans of the show and podcast so super happy to be here.

Naman Julka-Anderson (01:31)
Thank you for joining us. For anyone who doesn't know you, could you tell us a bit about you, your career to date?

Shah (01:38)
Yeah, so I wear lots of hats. So my main day job, nine to five, or including on calls, is that I'm a diagnostic and interventional neuroradiologist at the National Hospital for Neurology and Neurosurgery, which is part of UCLH. It's housed within Queen Square. So historically, Queen Square has been considered the home of neurosurgery. It's the first place where Sir Victor Horsley did first

neuro operations. It's a nice place to be in. There's not many places in the world where you can go to work in a beautiful Victorian square. I don't if you guys have been to it. So that's the day job, but I do lots of other things. in terms of research, I've still got a research program going on brain tumor imaging. I've always been involved in health technology consulting. I've been in that for about 10 to 15 years

basically working with start ups or companies and scaling them throughout the NHS and other health markets. I did a lot of work in the early iterations of AI and bringing it to market, then, you know, various bits of mentorship coaching. And that's where this whole UKIO piece fits in because, yeah, I am now president and it's kind of my job to kind of steer this ship into 2026 and 2027

and make sure everyone has a good time and a really good meeting.

Jo McNamara (02:57)
Incredible. I think you've downplayed a little bit of your career because obviously when we put your name into Google there's a lot that comes up. Tell us a little bit about what drew you specifically to the interventional neuro-radiology space initially.

Shah (03:12)
Yeah, you kind of, well, most of these things, these decisions in life are kind of serendipitous, right, a bit like chance. So I've always been doing integrated academic and clinical training. And I went down this oncology stream, I think in my SHO years. And as part of that kind of job role, you had to do four months of radiology and nuclear medicine. It turned out my first day and said like, look, I'm to become an oncologist.

Do you mind if I just go straight and do the research in oncology and whatnot? And the guy said like, look, if that's what you want to do, that's fine. But why don't you just spend a few days, a couple of weeks just to know that you've done it. And probably during that time I met my first mentor and she was like super sweet, name's Theresa Shishko and it just got on really well. And she was just like, you know, I see you might be really good at this. Then on the back of that, I kind of made the decision that I wanted to be an imager,

looking at images. And I applied for an academic clinical fellowship. And that was jointly between George's and the Marsden. And then that kind of set the tone. So shifted from oncology to radiology. And then within radiology, I was meant to be an oncology radiologist working at the Marsden. But again, like very early on in radiology, they sent me up to the neuro department. And I remember I say this saying

But you look at old reports or whatever when you're doing something, you see what the consultant's name is. And there's a guy Declan Johnson, who's an interventional radiologist. And he used to sign off his reports as DJ. And it was like something like spinal interventionist and neurovascular interventionist, something like that. And I was just like, that sounds really cool. But I don't know what any of this stuff is, but I'm going to, you know.

I quite like that sounds cool. Just so happens like Declan was an incredible mentor. He invested so much time in getting to know us registrars as people rather than trainees and whatnot. And then my whole life, my whole career, I've always been drawn to people and the stuff that they're doing. And I never look back. And then every time I always feel every time I pivot into something else, you kind of

disappoint a ton of other people who expected you to do something else. But I guess you just work with people you like in something that you want to do and don't get caught up in the politics. think you're generally always going to disappoint someone in what you do, but just frame what's important to you, what brings you happiness. Very early on, I've adopted that. Sometimes it works better than others and you still kind of end up doing things and being in places that aren't ideal

but you kind of got your hard nose and whatnot and stick to, you you stick to your principles and it's kind of, yeah, stood me in good stead. I'm not free of mistakes, I still make them. I just know how to deal with them better and how to learn from them.

Naman Julka-Anderson (06:04)
What's your favourite structure to report on?

Shah (06:06)
Favorite structure? Brain. Yeah. And brain, MRI.

Jo McNamara (06:10)
What does it say?

Shah (06:10)
Actually, I lie. lie.

Because, you know, angiography. Yeah, I love an angiogram. I think it's artistic in what it looks like, how the images are produced, and the depths of interpretation that you can go. Sorry, Jo Go on.

Jo McNamara (06:25)
Going to say just based on what you've just said, wouldn't it be amazing if maybe at UKIO we could have some like a nice art gallery with all of these amazing you know structures on that we get to see day in day out but do we ever see past the know the pathology of it you know just seeing it as a piece of art I think is really powerful and I definitely when I've worked in stereotactic and stuff before the angios always blow my mind it is like a work of art they're incredible.

Shah (06:34)
Yeah.

Yeah, and like,

can't look at trees anymore without seeing vascular structures of the brain. I always looked like that looks like a crotted, could that be an aneurysm? Could I treat that? How would I do it? It is artistic, but more importantly, when you're looking at pictures, you can often become desensitised to reporting on a picture without

Jo McNamara (06:54)
Yeah.

You

How amazing.

Shah (07:14)
Consciously thinking that's the patient. I think what I do is and this is crazy so I've vocalised these thoughts. It's like you built you look at the clinical history You look at the brain and you kind of build up this backstory to the patient A lot of stuff a lot of it's bad news. We're not necessarily the ones that break it but if you're conscious that that's a patient there behind that digital image you have

a greater responsibility of the words that you put in that report. It's super easy as a radiologist to give a wide differential diagnosis, to be extremely guarded in your opinion. And sometimes the imaging can only take you so far. It can be infection, inflammatory, ischemic, fine, but to go that extra mile to help the clinician triage that patient into the right care. And ⁓ just that...

Jo McNamara (07:52)
Yeah.

Shah (08:02)
have this consciousness and this awareness that someone's going to get this bad news on the end of it. So the least you can do is make sure that it reports as informative as it is as possible.

Jo McNamara (08:13)
It's interesting you say that because actually as well now lots of patients do have access to read their reports so they may not necessarily be able to interpret them but I do think you know the way in which you may be right what the diagnosis is could potentially impact that patient especially if people are accessing it via digital files now and not necessarily in front of

Shah (08:17)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jo McNamara (08:35)
consultant or whether it's digital it'll be interesting to see how that kind of develops. What does a day in your life typically look like? Is there a typical day?

Shah (08:44)
Gosh, typical days. There's no particular typical day, but the day encompasses everything that I do. So there's not a day in which you can escape working in health tech, being a frontline clinician, being a researcher, plus anything else that you do. you know, I'll say to someone yesterday that I wish there were more than 24 hours in the day because I need more time.

Unfortunately, there's not. So like in a very unhealthily, you know, I've managed to basically extract as much as I can from those 24 hours. That comes at a huge personal cost. So it's very, very early starts for me. So I'll try and get a significant chunk of work done before work. Whether that's just because I work on multiple time zones as well. So whether it's replying to emails from people in different time zones, first thing in the morning.

Um, and then generally I like to be super fresh for if I'm intervening. Um, so I kind of plan my day. So yeah a good night's before my intervention days, try and get in early, try and give the patient the time required during that consent process to really understand what is at risk here and you know, what can go wrong. I do aneurysm AVMs, you know, day in, out

treating of these things, right? So my frame of reference is different, it's my day job. But for the person in front of me, it's the biggest thing that they're ever going to go through in their life. And you can't desensitise yourself from that process. So you have to try and make every patient feel as if they are the most important priority for you on that day. So I like to spend a lot of time on the morning of the procedure

works well for me. then yeah, morning brief, get the team in shape. It's a good time for me to just, yeah, it's a good time to just get that multidisciplinary team of radiographers, the angio nurses radiologists together, circumvent any issues of the day. Hopefully the list goes to plan, rarely does because it's a very dynamic.

Environment in angio which patients ready which are on emergency comes through as well now we offer 24-7 come back to me, see your elective list to be interrupted with an emergency

get home very late most days. There's always a bit of diagnostic commitment to do. And then like with workstations at home now, it kind of bleeds into every, you know, your days, your evenings. And then evenings, again, emails, house tech clients, someone needs something actioning. At the end of my day, America has kind of come alive. So.

Then I'm working with American teams until their day finishes. And then between midnight and maybe one, half one, two AM, it's basically time for personal growth reflection. I realised if I was going to commit to this career in interventional neurobiology, you have to kind of give your all to everything. So I spent a lot of time analysing those cases. What could have gone better? What could have gone wrong? I study

frame by frame, I frame off the procedure each time, every time. It's just this iterative process of just wanting to get better all the time. I'm generally a big believer. Look, I was never talented at anything. So anything that I did do well, it's only because I worked hard at it. Some people are gifted and whatnot. wouldn't say I'm particularly gifted, but I would never ever let anyone outwork me.

Like that's just a hard line. I learned that from the Rock. Dwayne The Rock Johnson, he always used to say like, look, when he's in the gym, he's not going to let anyone out work him. I've just taken that approach to my work. And so, yeah, I'm a firm believer in hard work if you want to get better. A talent-oriented to get you so far.

Naman Julka-Anderson (12:34)
Now there'll be a lot of people listening to this thinking, that's amazing, but what's your why? Why do you want to always work this hard?

Shah (12:40)
Yeah, I guess why is because I'm a genuine believer in

you know, We're on this earth for a limited period of time and you can't ever take any material possessions with you. What you can do is leave some goodwill and a legacy. And I've always seen my parents go out of their way to help people. Like my mum was involved in social services and a really deprived part of London. I saw her give her all to these disenfranchised communities, always going above and beyond.

So I just think if you can do something for someone to make their life better, then why not? It cost me nothing. Right, sometimes it comes at a personal cost of time and whatnot and the stress and the pressure. But, you know, I think we're all part of something bigger. If you all take that mentality, then the world, you know, so much craziness going on in the world, then

Jo McNamara (13:22)
Yeah.

Shah (13:32)
we can kind of influence these fears around us. Those nodes of positivity will spread. Sometimes it works better than others. You often can't control a system, i.e. the NHS, which, you know, personal opinion is that it's brilliant, but workplaces are often far from ideal, but kindness costs nothing. And you can just work on yourself.

Jo McNamara (13:47)
Yeah.

Shah (13:54)
Be the best version of yourself and give the most and hope someone takes that forward. And that's really the MO. Like I say, sometimes I still get stressed. I still might snap at someone, but the general play is be the best version of yourself, be the kindness. Always do your best on the day, the clinical job, more often than not, your work. Sometimes you still get complications.

Jo McNamara (14:09)
Yeah.

Shah (14:19)
But then going back to that first part of the day when I'm with the patient and trying to convey that they are the most important person to me on that day, it helps when things don't go so well. Believe me, I work in neurovascular radiology, it's high risk, high pressure. And sometimes I can't predict the outcome regardless of everything that I want to plan

Jo McNamara (14:36)
Yeah.

Shah (14:41)
it still still get complications yeah my why is why not

Jo McNamara (14:44)
Got deep really quick

there, Shah.

Shah (14:46)
Yeah, because I think like, you know, with these podcasts and whatnot, and I genuinely don't do any, like you'll see my visibility, LinkedIn and all of that is pretty low. But that's because I would rather know fewer people who are more meaningful and I can influence their mindset than just kind of be, you know,

How do we put it?

Jo McNamara (15:10)
stretching for the limelight.

Shah (15:11)
Yeah, it's kind of, I find that very hollow. So I've been on a, I've been on a strong, you know, difficult journey to get to where I am. But it wasn't as bad as those guys who didn't have mentors. I benefited from just being able to accept help from other people. All of those things, they're all kind of mature a person, add layers to their fabric. And now I'm in a basic position where

I can take someone, I can help them become the best version of and show them a better way. Because that stretched hollow kind of version that you often see of people.

It's you're not making meaningful connections. That was a whole and that comes back to like, look, now you can plug in UK.

Jo McNamara (15:53)
Yeah.

Shah (15:53)
The reason I did it was because I know that there's this juggernaut of a team behind the thing. But they're not resources, they're people. So the least I can do in my leadership position is take care of the people that put this thing together, who work on it for 12 months, but all you see is three days of it. So I take care of these people.

Jo McNamara (16:13)
Thank you.

Shah (16:16)
You know, you'll never hear me say no. I'll always say yes, and then I'll go and work out how to do it. And then coming back to the theme, it's like, healthcare is a personal game. It's that human connection, which you'll remember from your lived experience. And I've been on the other side of it. What makes a difference to someone is how they were made to feel

during that process. Not that an AI algorithm said you've got like a heat map that says you may or may not have cancer of some sort. You know, so In this age of digitisation, AI, all of this stuff, maybe we're doing a disservice to the people who deliver healthcare. So that's what I wanted to celebrate from UKIO. Like, let's put the focus back on people. AI's got boring.

Jo McNamara (16:39)
Yeah.

Shah (17:02)
We've been hearing about it. I can say I was one of the early guys on the scene, but let's focus back on, put the focus back on people, their wellbeing, how as a group we can embrace these technologies and become better frontline healthcare workers.

Jo McNamara (17:27)
So you said a little bit about kind of that you were at the start when AI was gathering some momentum. Do you think that's the key then that AI has given us more time and space to then essentially dedicate back to our patients? What's your take on kind of the use of AI without kind of dedicating this podcast episode to it?

Shah (17:45)
Yeah

No,

Exactly. Look, there are use cases in which it can clearly work and it can clearly help. If we look at the screening space where imaging is used for screening, there's going to be a huge volume of work that radiology imaging professionals will just not be able to cope with. It's a good in that space, but you've got high volume, very narrow questions, cancer, not cancer, go to an arbitrator, it works.

But those use cases are few and far between. the early hype we've seen. The sad thing is that with those early use cases of soft triage in emergency lists and whatnot, they haven't translated into the workplace because there's no, one, there's no clinical need and there's no, from a cost perspective, it's not helping the hospital. And we knew these.

This would be the problem when we would pitch these ideas very early on, but we still went through this process of trials, in some cases clinical trials, lot of research, a lot of research funding. I think it's detracted from taking research funding into other important areas because AI was sexy and not everyone had to be seen to be doing it.

From where, if we think about packs, from packs being an idea to where it is now commonplace in every hospital, every radio audience upon does a 20 year process. So you have to give AI the time without the hype to find its place and translate. just so happens that now we live in the age of social media and everything else is constantly in your face. know, everyone's looking for

that golden bullet because there's been so much investment in that area. All we have to do is basically slow it down, do more, better sort out research experiments with it. And of course it will come, like I'm under no illusions. We're just not ready for mass scaling right now.

Naman Julka-Anderson (19:35)
You said AI's got boring. I would probably agree to some extent, but in some ways it is still quite exciting in healthcare because of it's almost limitless what we could achieve. What are you excited about in the next 10, 20 years of AI in healthcare and maybe specifically in your field as well?

Shah (19:49)
Yeah, so what I'm super interested in is how to take multiomic data points, not just in imaging, but marry that up with all of a patient's data points and give us insights into, into prognostication that we don't see. So I guess maybe I'm not articulating very well.

I want the AI to give me insights into stuff that I can't see, rather than do the stuff that I can do. Whether it might be able to do it better than me, might be able to do it faster than me. But we're doing a disservice if we're not using AI to gain novel data insights. And I think that's the game changer. So new imaging biomarkers, and you know, this kind of drive towards precision medicine. So, you know, we group

disease states together. you know, there's some, there's stages of cancers, different cancer subtypes, but going even further. and then developing the drugs on the back of that to really target that, ⁓ that's super specific, cancer type. So I'm very interested in the pharma piece of how all of these different data points then tie into drug development

and we should treat, you know, treat each patient on this personalised medical route. That will be super interesting. What I say is boring. I'm bored of lung nodule detection, chest X-rays and fractures and stuff like that.

Jo McNamara (21:09)
Ha!

Naman Julka-Anderson (21:14)
or AI on LinkedIn, that's what I'm bored of. I can tell instantly when I look at them, like, you've used AI to write this.

Jo McNamara (21:15)
Yeah.

Shah (21:16)
Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It all comes back to the same that I know we mentioned earlier If you wanted if you wanted this chat GPT piece of version of Shah you could just do that But I think we have more to offer as people. I can't take away People are very interesting because they're complicated right.

Jo McNamara (21:34)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Shah (21:44)
We've got emotions, we've got lived experiences and all of these multifactorial things that kind of make us who we are. It's kind of more interesting than, you know, whatever someone's header is on LinkedIn, right? That doesn't tell you what a person is. But I always say this thing, know, if you've got a 16 year old girl, I don't, but if you've got children and you've got a 16 year old girl, you tell them, like you'd say Instagram.

It's fake. It's not what, you know, it's not someone's reality. It's a, it's a version of a life they want to project. And LinkedIn is exactly the same. It's a version of a company that someone's willing to, a version of their successes that they're trying to project. I think it's pretty unhealthy. I've got a very good friend. I won't name him.

Jo McNamara (22:22)
Yeah.

Shah (22:35)
But we often talk about when we go to conferences and everything, we have to do this, you know, it's business at the end of the day. You go through this meet and greet and it's kind of like speed dating. Every so often you get to peel away with someone. Um, and so you just drop the act and it's just like, okay, how's it going for you? Develop that human connection. Um, and then, know, that's all you have half an hour. They say, back, back to business now.

I everyone to some degree is projecting a version of themselves. guess one, I got old. Two, I stopped caring. But truly what I value now are meeting new people and really getting to know them. And that's the beauty of life for me, because everyone's kind of interesting. You just have to kind of work a little bit to find

what their essence is about.

Jo McNamara (23:31)
So Shah we've mentioned UKIO. For anyone who's kind of maybe seen any Instagram posts or any social media or been on the website, what is it, the essence of what you are hoping UKIO is going to give people this year?

Shah (23:46)
So one, I'll talk about the broader thing about UKIO why I like it. Like, look, as a radiologist, I don't own imaging in the hospital. It's, you know, within radiology where radiologists, radiographers, nurses, sometimes therapeutic radiographers, HCA's, domestics. Like when I get Friday KFC, that's the team that's going to be getting it, right?

When I throw a summer party, those are the people that come. UKIO is the only... Yeah, I love it. We'll do some live podcasting from the Thames. You heard it here first. But UKIO is the only one that embraces the end-to-end workflow of how imaging is acquired, reported and the people involved in it, right?

Naman Julka-Anderson (24:16)
Hope we get an invite as well, yeah?

KFC and summer, happy with that.

Shah (24:36)
So you take that MDT that I get to work with day in, day out and put them all on one roof. And I think that's incredibly powerful because you get everybody talking to each other. And so when we plan UKIO, we think about the different groups and how do we maximise that delegate experience depending on where they come from. Trainees, radiographers, general managers of departments, everyone.

The other radiology societies and whatnot, they're generally geared towards one group of that imaging chain. So it's super fun for me because I get to do all these cool things. What can you expect? What are we doing differently this year than we haven't done before? So...

Day one, I've got Professor Shafi Ahmed who's considered a super leader in this space of kind of digital health, futuristic medicine, but also has done a lot of humanitarian work. So I'm really interested to see how his brain marries all of these concepts together, these working conflict zones. He's constantly on the bleeding edge of

innovations, he'll be doing the plenary. Day two, we're going to have a very honest debate and people may not like this, but it's centered around why AI has failed in the UK. And, you know, I wouldn't consider a failure, but why has it been slow to adopt? Why people not buying it considering all the claims that were made seven, eight years ago. And then day three, we got the President's Award because

I genuinely wanted to celebrate people who deliver these frontline services. Like UK should be a celebration of the things that we do very well in the UK. So we've put out the calls for the nominations and then me and my working party, we're going to go through them and hand out these awards. And then what I like to do is like put the focus back on those people that win it. So that's cool.

We're constantly trying to, we never rest our laurels. have to reinvent. Reinvention is scary because you're moving away from a formula, but it's the only way to grow, see what works, what doesn't. You get two years to do this. So I hope some of these experiments work. I treat everything like a science project, right? Do an experiment, see what works, look at the results, what doesn't, readjust.

Hopefully I don't make the same mistakes twice, yeah, I'm excited you guys will be there podcasting throughout the day.

Jo McNamara (27:06)
Always. We love UKIO, it's a great opportunity to kind of speak more with radiography colleagues from across the entire pathway, so it's lovely from that perspective. And there is a real buzz, I think, about UKIO. We always feel really constricted because we're in our podbox and we're like, oh, this talk looks amazing, I'd love to go to that talk. So it's great to kind of get follow on social media from the audience members using the hashtag to then kind of follow along with things that are happening.

Shah (27:25)
Yeah.

You know, the plan is like not making it very stuffy to keep a lot of energy. ⁓ We got a President's dinner on the Monday night, which is open to everybody now. We take that energy from day one. You guys will be there, of course, on as an invite as the President's guests. But it'll be open to everybody. And we're just going to have a lot of fun.

Jo McNamara (27:37)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shah (27:57)
That energy from day one into one place because everyone kind of splits off in Liverpool doing things but it's just quite nice to everyone to at some point congregate at the Titanic Hotel. ⁓

Jo McNamara (28:01)
Yeah.

It's

that networking though, isn't it, Shah? It's that community. And we certainly have met people at UKIO and then gone on to do projects with them that we would never have been involved in had we not have been there. So it's a great opportunity from that perspective to kind of connect.

Shah (28:11)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I guess it was the first place that we connected, And yeah, I think we can do some good stuff together. I haven't figured it out. Just know that I'll say yes and then I'll figure out how to do it later.

Jo McNamara (28:26)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, excited.

So we're, we're moving towards the latter end of the podcast recording, although we've got loads of questions we could ask you. But we thought it'd be fun to do a bit of a quick fire word or sentence answers. So you can't waffle on, you've just got to be succinct. So

Shah (28:43)
You guys have done great.

Yeah, yeah.

Jo McNamara (29:01)
MRI or CT.

Shah (29:02)
MR.

Jo McNamara (29:03)
⁓ Research or clinical day.

Shah (29:05)
Cool.

Jo McNamara (29:05)
⁓ Most exciting innovation up to now.

Shah (29:08)
Most exciting innovation platinum coils for aneurysm treatments changed the game.

Jo McNamara (29:12)
Brilliant. One skill every healthcare professional should develop in your opinion.

Shah (29:16)
Resilience.

Jo McNamara (29:17)
And the best piece of career advice you've ever received.

Shah (29:20)
Pressure builds diamonds.

Jo McNamara (29:21)
Amazing. Love it.

Naman Julka-Anderson (29:29)
So Shah, the end of the episode we always like to end of top tips for our listeners. Anything else you want to give our listeners before we end?

Shah (29:36)
Top tips? I think, yeah, be brave. You know, everyone harbours dreams and everyone at some point feels stuck and whatnot. Never be afraid to just like seek help. Cold call, find a mentor, just do it. If something's not working, it's insanity to keep going. Just be brave and you never know what will come out of it.

Naman Julka-Anderson (30:00)
Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on and thanks everyone for listening and hopefully we'll see you all at UKIO 2026.

Shah (30:04)
anytime.

Naman Julka-Anderson (30:07)
You can use this episode as part of our free, continual professional development, accredited content, which offers flexible learning that fits your busy schedule. Just check out the show notes for the reflective questions, links to literature and resources, and a link to complete the form to receive your accredited certificate.

Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (30:13)
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Naman Julka-Anderson (30:23)
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Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (30:39)
It goes without saying that we can't achieve this alone. It takes all of us working together to create real change. That's why we value every voice and every contribution. We ask that you listen and learn, spread the word, share your story and if you need to, contact us.

Naman Julka-Anderson (30:45)
If you like what we're doing, buy us a coffee, keep us caffeinated, go to our website to find out more. Thank you all for listening and take care.