Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (00:00)
Hello everyone and welcome to Rad Chat, founded by me, Jo McNamara.

Naman Julka-Anderson (00:04)
And me, Naman Julka-Anderson. Rad Chat is a forward-thinking global knowledge hub where healthcare professionals can advance their expertise in therapeutic radiography and oncology. Unlike traditional academic resources, we blend real-world experience, expert insights, best practice, and patient perspectives.

Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (00:21)
We make advanced knowledge engaging and accessible, supporting continuous learning and professional development without compromising patient care or your personal time by providing insights into both technical skills and career development, helping you to progress confidently in your field and shape your professional future.

Naman Julka-Anderson (00:38)
Just to let you know, our episodes may contain sensitive and difficult topics that you might find distressing or triggering. Please consider checking out another episode.

Jo McNamara (00:48)
So this is episode 206, which is part of our leadership series where we're going to be hearing from our guest, Kevin Sullivan, about his role as the director of product marketing at Varian. So welcome, Kevin, to our chat. How are you?

Kevin (01:02)
I'm good thank you, thanks for having me. I've been looking forward to this.

Jo McNamara (01:05)
Really? Or have you been dreading it? ⁓

Kevin (01:06)
No, looking

forward to it. I'm excited. I've been an early follower from the start, so I'm very privileged to be invited on.

Jo McNamara (01:10)
⁓ What?

Yeah, well thank you so much and yeah I think we met you very early on in our Rad Chat career actually at a conference shoved one of our Rad Chat cards in your hand telling you it cost us 35p and then demanded that you have a listen and see if it would be of interest to you so thank you for kind of listening to us babble on about Rad Chat for quite so long at all these conference occasions that we get to meet at. ⁓

For anyone listening, Kevin, tell us a little bit about yourself and your career background, if you will.

Kevin (01:46)
Yeah, so a very diverse career to date. So I trained as a therapeutic radiographer back in the late 90s through the University of Hertfordshire. So my clinical placements or where I did the majority of my clinical training was Charing Cross and the Hammersmith and also did a little bit of time at Mount Vernon as well. So did that, took my

first job at the North Middlesex, so North London, spent, can't remember, probably about 10 years there, with an 18 month gap. I did what most UK radiographers do, I disappeared over to Australia, mainly to surf, but managed to get in bit of work while I was over there. So I worked at the Royal Brisbane, worked at the Prince of Wales in Sydney, just to get a bit of a kind of diverse experience

and came back to the North Mid for a short period of time. Had a really unusual experience at an early age in my career, around about the age of 27/28 where I ended up managing the department for a 12 month period, just due to a number of circumstances, which was super interesting. After that, went to UCLH in a research role.

And so I did two years of ⁓ paediatric research, which was actually more focused on the use of radioisotopes such as MIBG, and focused on neuroblastoma, which, as I'm sure you guys know, and many of the listeners will know, is a pretty difficult disease for children. There's still a lot of research being done in that area to, improve the outcomes. And, and then I've always really had a passion for the

the pre-treatment side of radiotherapy. Always been super interested in different imaging modalities, how to improve the treatment planning process, etc. So I led the pre-treatment department at UCLH for a couple of years and then became the radiotherapy service manager there. And then to this day, I still don't know how it happened,

I became the divisional manager of cancer. So ⁓ UCLH has a slightly different language for its leadership roles. So in any other hospital, that would be the director of cancer. And went from managing a radiotherapy department and a typical radiotherapy department budget to managing a whole population of cancer patients, a significant budget and having roughly at the top.

Naman Julka-Anderson (04:05)
How much, Kevin?

Everyone wants to know.

Kevin (04:08)
I had responsibility of an operational budget of probably 190 million at the time with about 1200 staff within the cancer division at University College. No, exactly, but an unbelievable experience.

Jo McNamara (04:20)
You wouldn't get that now, Kevin.

Naman Julka-Anderson (04:22)
That's like the cost of one foot below at a London club.

Kevin (04:30)
Absolutely loved that job, really, really genuinely loved that job. As you can imagine, extremely stressful because you manage everything from the radiotherapy department to outpatients to inpatients. We had a huge cancer clinical trials unit. I managed haematology at the same time. And as you guys know,

was part of bringing protons to the UK, was part of that team. And we put a proton center right in the middle of central London on Tottenham Court Road. So I learned a lot in that job, both about construction and about cancer pathways. And then ended up with Varian. And the interesting bit of that was I wasn't really looking to change roles.

One thing I did realise in that senior management role within cancer was I missed radiotherapy. That's always been my passion. Even though I had kind of touch points with it, I still missed it. And I've always had a huge passion for cancer. So when I was looking at opportunities to grow,

and to change my role potentially in the future, I felt I was always gonna have to step away from cancer. As we know, there's not many dedicated cancer hospitals in the UK. There's the Marsden and places like that, but not a huge number of them. And I kind of didn't see myself becoming a chief operating officer of a general hospital and managing lots of different

specialties I really wanted to stay within cancer. So the odd thing is my wife spotted this job on her LinkedIn post with Varian and it was a strategic partnership management role and it was the first within the in Europe they had Varian had established a strategic

partnership management function in the US and they were looking to expand it into Europe. And to summarise that role, it was really about working with key academic centres in Europe to speed up the innovation. So looking at how we can work with some of those academic partners, some of the research that they were doing, looking, I was in a privileged position in Varian that I could

I could see the innovations we were doing over the next five to 10 years. And then my, my role was to kind of match the two with the academic centers I was working and see if we could speed up innovation and speed up some of the, maybe some of the testing of the innovations that we were doing. So I did that for about three or four years and then ended up in product marketing. So I'm a therapeutic radiographer that now leads a global team of product marketers

with zero experience in marketing.

Naman Julka-Anderson (07:18)
Not quite true, because you've spoken to patients and counselled them and marketed radiotherapy and things like that. That's an invaluable experience. And as you said, you managed to get a proton beam therapy unit in the middle of central London. That's marketing in a way, isn't it? We've all seen the photos of the crane and everything stopped. It's just incredible that that happened.

Kevin (07:31)
Yeah, totally.

Yeah, it was unreal. Unreal. We shut down London, getting that cyclotron and some of the gantries in as well. But yeah, and I think, you know, I jest, but I think I bring a very different perspective to marketing in that, you know, I've worked on the machines, I've worked on the software, but then I've also managed departments, understand some of the difficulties that we know are in our community at the moment in terms of workforce

the availability of workforce and how actually some of our products can can solve those, or not solve them, but at least aid the clinics with those workforce challenges.

Jo McNamara (08:24)
So Kevin, what does a day in your life look like? Is it sat in front of a computer, marketing strategies, or is there more to it?

Kevin (08:32)
Yeah, no, as you can guess, I'm not going to answer and say every day is the same. What I would say is I'm extremely lucky in that I work remote, so I spend most of my office days at home. I do travel a lot, mainly to meet with different customers, go to different clinic sites, go to some of the different variant headquarters, whether that's in the US or we have some in Switzerland as well. So doing that.

Day to day, I manage a team of five, six people. They're spread globally. I have someone working in Australia. I have a couple working in the US and I have a couple in Europe. So as you can imagine, that extends my day to make sure I capture everyone. But the day varies. It can be meetings with product managers to understand some of the work that they're doing, what we're doing in terms of products

development where things are in its life cycle, whether it's right at the start of the innovation, or maybe, you know, as you guys will be aware, maybe it's part of an upgrade to one of our products that we're looking at, and guiding the team around what we need to do in terms of marketing. We're also responsible for looking at things like pricing, which can be very difficult because obviously we cover a number of different regions or a global company that covers that.

So making sure we get the right price. And then the exciting bits are when we're looking at planning launches of a product and that starts 18 months before the actual launch itself, making sure we've got everything. So it's varied, no days the same, but that's the same in everyone's job. But yeah, I'm really, really enjoying it. It's a really fun thing to do and I have a great team as well.

Jo McNamara (10:15)
Kevin how much say do you get in kind of product design because obviously you must work quite closely but they must love the fact that you have so much experience behind you that you can actually feed back to them and go ⁓ hang on a minute have you thought about this and I'm not saying that obviously from a project development perspective that they'll just go rogue and develop something that's not fit for practice but it must be

an amazing skill to have as much radiotherapy knowledge and the marketing considerations. They must be very lucky to have you in that role.

Kevin (10:48)
Yeah, I hope they think that and I'm sure they do. yeah, you know, I don't have a huge influence. There's a lot of people. Varian's a great company, very diverse group of professionals in it, as you can imagine, you know, expands from engineers to physicists to, you know, therapeutic radiographers or RTTs as they're more widely known across Europe. So yeah, there's lots of different

diverse ideas which I think is great because you need that diversity of thought to be able to produce something that's really useful. But yeah definitely get asked on the probably more from my director of cancer role understanding how that level of kind of leadership would respond to some of the innovations and particularly questions around

how do we budget for that sort of thing in those sorts of roles? Because the pricing, can be quite difficult and complex to get that right.

Naman Julka-Anderson (11:45)
Can ask Kevin, so as it's a global role, how do you decide for different regions, like the priorities and bring in the customer voice? Just trying to understand obviously with your hat looking at everything, it's going to be very different demands and priorities all across the world.

Kevin (12:00)
Yeah, so the way we're structured within the company is I work within the global product marketing team and then we have regional marketing teams. So I heavily rely on my colleagues within the regions to give me the voice of customer for those regions. You know, and I think one of my passions for cancer is around equity of care as much as possible. And, you know,

we can't hide behind the fact that from a capital expense point of view, radiotherapy can be quite expensive up front. Innovation shouldn't just be for the rich cancer centers across the world. We should be able to enable innovation across all markets.

So think your question is right. We need to make sure we're listening to voice of customers across a number of different regions, whether that's in developed countries or in well-developed countries. The three of us are in a well-developed country that actually still struggles with some of its cancer pathways. So we need to look at how we can support that sort of thing as well.

Jo McNamara (12:58)
Kevin, Varian's recently been taken over by Siemens in terms of kind of that merging of two companies. How have you found that with essentially maybe a company that isn't so well known for radiotherapy technology, especially here in the UK anyway?

Kevin (13:15)
Yeah, yeah so it was interesting so I joined Varian and then six months later Covid broke out and as you can imagine you go from a roll in a hospital as you guys have worked and you're surrounded by friends and colleagues and then I joined Varian where I was sitting at home by myself 90% of the time if I wasn't traveling and then Covid happened.

And then about a year or so into COVID, as you've just said, it was announced that we're being taken over by Siemens Healthineers and it's been a really positive experience actually. And I've always tried to look at it through the lens of what if I was still working within cancer from a clinical perspective. And I think what the merger of those two company really brings is it really opens up

the aspects of the patient pathway that we have the ability to influence and touch. So as you know, seeing myself in it as, you know, as a leader in imaging and diagnostics, so you now have that really early element of the patient pathway that we can influence. And then when they come into radiotherapy, have all of that variant expertise. And then as they exit the radiotherapy pathway, if you want to call it that way, you still have all the imaging long-term follow-up.

So we're really looking at how can we improve that patient pathway. And as we know, some cancer disease sites are becoming much more of a chronic disease. And you see patients now, and I'm sure you guys are seeing it, a lot more multiple courses of radiotherapy and more re-treatments.

I've been to some clinics across Europe where nearly 40-50% of their workload is now re-treatments or multiple course radiotherapy. And if we can then interlink all of that with the pre-imaging and the post-imaging of radiotherapy, you can make that entry into radiotherapy so much easier. And you know, just some of the, we went from 11,000 people in Varian to 75,000 people when you add everyone from Siemens Healthineers

that's a lot more expertise, that's a lot more engineers expertise and we've been able to kind of connect some of the development work that was going on to speed up some of our innovation by now to take some of the technology from Siemens Healthineers and vice versa. So yeah, it's been a really, really positive experience.

Naman Julka-Anderson (15:39)
Is there anything with the merger that's happened that has surprised you?

Kevin (15:42)
Do you know what? I was trying not to do a sales pitch, but do know what the biggest thing that surprised me was when, what, three, four years ago, when we, three years ago when we launched the Hypersight, the cone beam CT imaging, I never thought you'd see a day where a Linac could produce an image of similar quality, you know. For me, that's just a game changer, you know.

This is coming from someone that had MV imagines, you know, so I was used to squinting my eye, tilting my head to the left a little bit and go, yeah, that's a virtual body. To now having such clear definition and to be able to make decisions on image quality from your Linac like that. And that again comes from the merger, you know, the expertise of their imaging, being able to put that, bring that imaging quality in. So yeah, that for me was a big surprise to be able to do that so quickly.

Jo McNamara (16:30)
It's funny, Kevin, I was teaching some students today and had an archaic looking Varian machine on screen talking about back in the day when we used to treat testicular cancer patients, para-aortic lymph nodes, dog legs, inverted Ys, and they looked at me going, what is that? And I was like, that's a Varian Linac. And they're like, is it? And I'd like to say it's not that long ago. It is probably that

long ago but technology is so rapidly evolving and especially I would say within the last five years it has been rapid. Why do you think that is and what is the future of radiotherapy from your perspective?

Kevin (17:12)
Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? Because one of my managers, Sasa Mutic, that heads up our Radiation Oncology Solutions, he uses this quote. He went to a Radiation Oncologist retirement party and he said, I'm not retiring from one career. I'm retiring from maybe three or four because every 10 years radiotherapy changed that much that I feel like I've had three or four different careers.

So the embarrassing part of that is I feel like I've had two or three decades in radiotherapy already. But why is the innovation? I think just technology itself in the general world, know, I don't want to guess your ages, but When I trained in radiotherapy, mobile phones didn't exist. know, You didn't have a mobile phone is basically a computer in your hand. You didn't have that.

So all of that technology has sped up. And I think what we've done in the industry side of things have learned from all of that technology and looked at how we can speed up the implementation into radiotherapy. How do I see the future of radiotherapy? I think we're heading into an era where it's really gonna be focused around, I suppose what I would call it, a new era of precision.

I think if you look at introduction of AI, I don't know people get nervous about AI, but AI for me is especially in a profession like ours where we know workforce is limited. We know in physics workforce is limited and we know radiation oncologists is limited. And we also know we're not training enough people to fill the gaps in the workforce and what's needed for the future.

So I think something like AI is definitely going to happen. And for me, AI is about supporting those clinical decisions. So I think, you know, if you look at how we now shape the dose to tumors, how we save organs at risk, so I really see precision being that kind of next step in radiotherapy. I also see radiotherapy being less as a separate part of the cancer pathway. You know, when you look at a cancer pathway,

it's often seen that patients go to radiotherapy and then they come back from radiotherapy. I see it and maybe this is a little bit of a hope. This is a personal view. I see radiotherapy really being viewed as a complete modality as part of that cancer care pathway. I see it being combined a lot more with things like immunotherapy. We're starting to see some of the outcomes of those trials. And I see it less focused on

what's the dosimetric plan? And I'm hoping we see it more focused on how do we improve the outcome for this patient long-term? do we make some of those decisions to improve the outcome of those patients long-term? And I think that will come with, you know, increased use of hypofractionation as well, which is a benefit to patients. If we look at the UK as an example, it's a benefit to some of the

departments that, you know, overwhelmed with the number of patients that need and require radiotherapy because hyperfractionation will help with that capacity sort of thing. And from a patient perspective, you know, I love that phrase, time toxicity. How do you help patients with that? You know, less time in hospitals, more time actually getting on and living their lives and radiotherapy just being something you just pop in half for 10 minutes and disappear off. That's where I hope it's heading in the way.

It's going, and I think speed is going to be one thing. I know in Varian we're looking, everything we look at in terms of innovation, we do have a view with everything I've just said around workforce. How do we support clinics in an environment where workforce is really difficult and how do we make things easier? I think some automation, you'll see a lot more automation. And I think that's hard for people to accept sometimes.

I always joke with some of our engineers when they ask me around, know, AI making a decision and automation and then some of the listeners to this won't even remember what a simulator is. But you know, for those who do know what a simulator is, I think this is the greatest way to explain how I think we need to maintain the human element of AI.

So I would have a patient on my simulator and my radiation oncologist would be sat in the clinic. So I put the patient on the sim and I would do my fluoro and put the field where I thought the field needed to be for that patient. And then the radiation oncologist comes in and I fluoro again and the radiation oncologist goes left a little bit, left a little bit more. And then I'd fluoro again, go right a little bit, right a little bit more. Perfect. That's exactly where I need it.

That's how I view how radiation oncologists, physicists, therapeutic radiographers see AI is yes, they believe it probably can make the decision, but they just need to interact it because they need to own that decision. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I think we need to design systems that enable people to feel the ownership of it, if that makes sense.

Naman Julka-Anderson (22:04)
Completely agree. I think just your point on shorter fractionations and stuff, obviously it's great with the financial toxicity and time toxicity for patients, but what about the connection time then? So obviously we're used to seeing patients for weeks. How do we balance the innovation and technology with then not losing that kind of human connection and touch as therapeutic radiographers? That's my only slight worry with it.

Kevin (22:25)
Yeah,

that's a really important point and I often tell some of my colleagues in Varian that often the most important time with your patient is as you walk through the maze. That moment from the entry to the maze, walking in with your patient, having that time just to ask them a few questions and understand where they are. Yeah, I get your question and I

that the shorter fractionation does make that harder. But I also think we can use technology. You know, before I left cancer at UCLH, we used to really struggle for clinic space. You know, that was one of the biggest challenges I faced was having enough clinic rooms to be able to see the patients. And before COVID, you know, my conversation was all about how can we use technology so we can still engage with patients

still speak with them, still see them, but not utilise the clinic space. And I think COVID has pushed us in that direction. And I think we can definitely use technology in that way. I wouldn't want to step away from the person to person contact. I think that's super important. But at the same time, I don't think patients would want to come in for, 33/35 fractions if they could do it in a lot less as well. But yeah, the other thing is I think outcomes.

Personal view this is, I don't think as a radiotherapy community we've been very, very good at recording long-term patient outcomes. And I think there's an opportunity to really take advantage of some of the technology to do that. Because I'm sure there are many advantages of some of the innovations that we've seen in radiotherapy in the last 10 years and we're just not picking up the benefits to patients.

Jo McNamara (24:05)
It must be really like annoying for it.

manufacturers industry to not have that data because it's obvious isn't it but it's really hard to be able to kind of say yes you're investing a lot of money millions upon millions of pounds in this equipment but ultimately it means that this patient is not going to have urinary incontinence for the rest of their life and then require all the additional care and support from the NHS in the latter stages and it's so difficult to get that across in a business case

which is where I know radiotherapy managers struggle when they are trying to write business cases for new pieces of technology and equipment. How can we get round that? Do you envisage from your perspective in kind of the space that you're in that that will ever disappear or do you think it's always going to be a challenge?

Kevin (24:55)
I think it will always be a challenge. But yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

I've written many business cases in the past. I think I've purchased over six Linacs in my career and a Proton Center at the same time. And justification is always really difficult. And long-term outcome. I think the challenge is when people are looking at business cases, they're looking at it in a very narrow view. They're looking at it as what's the impact to my capital budget this year?

On that. And I think the point you're making is really interesting. I always look at left-sided breast as an example. You know that the research and the evidence is out there, if you save a grade to the heart, you're reducing, you know, the risk of a cardiac event in that patient by x%. You could really calculate that out and demonstrate that you're going to reduce

A&E attendances within that community by X amount, you're going to reduce the need for cardiovascular intervention, know, interventional rooms, etc, over a period of time. I don't think we're quite ready to look at business cases in that way. And that's just from my experience. They might be different in different hospitals, but from my experience, I just think it's very narrow minded of this is how much capital budget we have this year, and this is what we're going to look at rather than

if I invest now, here's my saving for the next 10 years, 20 years, etc. And that's why, you know, when I said the future of radiotherapy, that's why I really hope we start to look at what's the benefit and the outcome for patients and look at it much more of a long term rather than what's the dose I'm going to get for this. What's the plan I will get by using this technology and that actually can we flip it and what's the patient outcome benefit for this technology?

Naman Julka-Anderson (26:46)
Can I just ask Kevin, when linking to that, when in your like divisional leadership roles and stuff, how has it been when you're competing as a radiotherapy professional but also the radiotherapy budget looking at surgery and the day unit for chemotherapy and things like that? Because don't want to be biased, but feel like radiotherapy always gets pushed to the side when it comes to decision making. And we don't always seem to be as important because they think, well, you've got your Linac, it's fine.,

but actually that you should really be thinking for the next 10 years, etc, but it always seems in conversations or understanding from other people that some of the other budgets kind of get a bit more priority early on.

Kevin (27:22)
Yeah I think it goes back to the kind of theme that I've been talking about is when you look at surgery the kind of outcome is almost instantaneous isn't it. People see the benefit of a robotic you know DaVinci robot almost instantaneously and radiotherapy and it you know I think the

the weight or the pressures on us to increase that visibility, know, even what you guys are doing, increase the visibility of what radiotherapy is, what the benefits of it are, what some of the benefits are in terms of long-term outcome for patients. We all know radiotherapy has a huge part to play in cancer treatment.

But we as a community need to be much better at producing the evidence to be able to justify getting in front of some of those other divisions that you talk about because I think we maybe just don't have enough of the data to show the real benefits. And unfortunately, I've learned this as being part of industry is it's very difficult to get evidence.

If you compare ourselves to the pharmaceutical world, they can't bring a product to the market without all of the evidence first. Medical devices live in a very different world. You just have to prove safety. And unfortunately, the way that works then is as industry develops innovations, we hand it to the community and go.

There you go. We believe this will do X, Y and Z. And then we have to wait five years for any clinical, you know, evidence. Like Jo was saying, there's the buildup of evidence takes time and it's a period of time that you have to wait. And I think that's where industry and clinical partners can work much better working together. How do we speed up the evidence generation so that technology gets adopted quicker, but then also how it then helps people with their business cases because they can go and say,

well, here's the evidence, here's the benefits, then here's the 5-year benefit and the 10-year benefit of this type of innovation and technology.

Jo McNamara (29:29)
So Kevin, you're an expert in radiotherapy. You've had all these years of experience. You're now in a very senior marketing role. How would you market radiotherapy as a therapeutic radiographer now to the world? Without sounding like a job interview question.

Kevin (29:44)
thousands. That's a

Naman Julka-Anderson (29:48)

Kevin (29:48)
I

Naman Julka-Anderson (29:48)
% is a job interview question.

Kevin (29:48)
was about to say that sounds like an actual job interview question.

I think it goes back to what, yeah, I need more than water to answer that question. Jo, thanks. I think it goes back to what I was saying when you asked me around what's the future of radiotherapy. And I really see radiotherapy being an integral part of the cancer pathway. I know that it is now, but I genuinely see it being a really important part

Naman Julka-Anderson (29:54)
If you need to sip your water Kevin it's alright.

Kevin (30:17)
of the cancer pathway moving forward. I still believe that there are medical oncologists out there that just don't refer some patients for radiotherapy because, I'll speak with real honesty here, that it's sometimes just viewed by other professions as a black hole. The patient disappears into radiotherapy and then reappears three or four weeks later.

And I think, you know, if we were to market that, I'd really want to demonstrate the efficiency of radiotherapy, the efficacy of radiotherapy, the patient experience in radiotherapy. Going back to the point you were making, patients come and have real human interaction with therapeutic radiographers, with their radiation oncologists. You know, and even going back to my time working in cancer.

they would often talk about their radiotherapy experiences, probably one of the better part of their cancer experiences because of that human interaction that you get. So I think I'd really want to market that aspect. There's still a fear around radiotherapy, just because of the simple word radiation. know, people just go, you know, I'm going to get burned, I'm going to get whatever. So I think there's still more and more we can do around

the safety of radiotherapy and the benefits both for patients as well as our other professions. The other element is, going back to what I saying, I see it being a real important part in terms of oligometastatic disease. And we know, as I was saying, cancer feels like it in some cases is more chronic

and how radiotherapy can be really quick and efficient in delivering radiotherapy to some of those, let's call them stubborn oligomets that maybe their first line treatment, whether it's chemotherapy or immunotherapy is those oligomets are not responding to and radiotherapy really has a thing for that. So I think I do that, but you know, I'd focus on efficacy, efficiency, and when I say efficiency, not just operational efficiency, but cost efficiency.

If you really look at, and I know I said earlier in this, said the capital outlay can be quite expensive at the start, but when you invest in radiotherapy technology, typically it's lasting 10 to 12 years. You can imagine the number of thousands of patients that are being treated on one linac over those 10 to 12 years. So it really is from a cost kind of effectiveness really, really beneficial as well.

Did I pass my interview question?

Jo McNamara (32:46)
Well,

you did. It was very impressive. You scored quite highly on that, Kevin. I was just missing a strap line. We'll wait for that.

Kevin (32:54)
Ha

Jo McNamara (33:03)
So, Kevin, I'm sure we could chat probably all evening, but we do want you to go and get some downtime or you're probably going into a meeting with someone from Australia. But we always end our Rad Chat podcast episodes with top tips. I would love it if you could give anyone

Kevin (33:13)
Yeah.

Jo McNamara (33:20)
listening who potentially wants to go into industry what advice would you give them?

Kevin (33:26)
Ooh, going into industry. Do you know what advice I'd give is don't change. Stick to your principles. And particularly for therapeutic radiographers, going into industry, you're going into an area where it's typically a lot of physicists and engineers. And be really confident in your expertise and in your knowledge and how much you can bring to industry. think that's super important.

Yeah, I think that's it. Be confident. It's an exciting place to work. I never thought I'd end up in industry. We all joke, don't you? When you go from clinical to management, you're crossing over to the dark side. So I don't know what it means I did, because I went from clinical to management, from management to industry. I don't know how dark I can get.

Jo McNamara (34:07)
Well thank you so much Kevin for joining us here on Rad Chat. So thank you all for listening to Rad Chat. My name is Jo McNamara and I'm joined by fellow host Naman Julka-Anderson. Thank you all very much.

Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (34:18)
So what do you do now? Well you can use this episode as part of our free continual professional development accredited content which offers flexible learning that fits your busy schedule. Just check out the show notes for the reflective questions, links to literature and resources and link to the completed form to receive your accredited certificate.

Naman Julka-Anderson (34:37)
Stay up to date with the latest radiotherapy and oncology advancements by liking and following us on social media and hitting subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (34:47)
Please do join our supportive community designed by professionals who understand the unique challenges of working within radiotherapy and oncology. Follow us across all of our social media channels and make sure to check out our website www.radchat.co.uk. Together we're actively working to improve our profession and make a lasting positive impact on cancer care.

Naman Julka-Anderson (35:00)
It goes without saying that we can't achieve this alone. It takes all of us working together to create real change. That's why we value every voice and every contribution. We ask that you listen and learn and spread the word, share your story with us and connect with us.

Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (35:15)
And if you have liked this content, why not buy us a coffee? Go to our website and drop us some love. Thank you all for listening and take care.